Bootstrap Framework 3.3.6

[ratt@tat]

Why isnt the 900+, foot basket an 11 a par 5? It is so tough to do that hole in 4.

[ratt@tat]

The 900+ foot basket at 11 - sorry cant type.

[nastyN]

It is so tough to do that hole in 4.

Not if you're BobbyJ or Hastings. Do you really want to give away two free strokes if you happen to play with a monster-arm hucker?

[FishyMack]

I made it in 5 ONCE by myself and ONCE in Partners.

[Stairyo]

I tend to agree with Ratt...I play it as a par 5. I'm usually happy to get a 5 and I would be extactic with a 4. In my experience a three on 911 is worthy of an Eagle

I think generally top pros should have a chance at a birdie everytime they play a hole, but I believe 3s are extremely rare for 911. I'm not sure what Nate is talking about with Dan and Bobby getting 2 strokes on someone...par doesn't change your score. If you get a 3 and I get a 5 you still get two strokes even if its a par 10 And is anyone actually getting 3s regularly...or even ocasionally? There were only 3 at the RFDO. Seriously how often does this happen?

Here are some links I found for determining par and course design:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGASkillGuides2009.pdf
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGA_Course_Design_Guides_March_2012.pdf

[nastyN]

I can see your point about giving up strokes, Al, but top pros do have a chance at birdie every time they step up to the tee here. A great tee shot (rare) sets you up with a slightly downhill (all be it very long) approach shot. People rarely three it because it is a CHALLENGE. We get better at anything by challenging ourselves, not patting ourselves on the back for a mediocre performance.
BTW: I've marked a 4 here with only a shark. It was one of the best holes I've ever thrown, and I will remember it forever. Scott Gears and I marked a four last league there as well, all his throws (pretty sure mostly with a destroyer)

[Stairyo]

Nate, I think you are making my point for me . One definition of par is "an amount or level considered to be average". You are clearly describing the performances where you scored a four as above average and very memorable. Essentially you are "patting yourself on the back" for what you consider a par performance and by extension describing a score of 5 as mediocre. Shouldn't "one of the best" and "memorable" holes you ever play be considered a birdie to you? It sounds to me like you agree that a four is a great score, a five is mediocre, and a 3 is exceptional...so where is the disagreement ?

Does anyone have a technical reason like a rule/guideline/formula why 911 is a par 4 and not a par 5?

[ratt@tat]

I have made it in 4, but only like 15% of the time - And I throw my Nuke SS 350 feet on a good rip. It should be played as a par 5.

[nastyN]

It was memorable because i did it with a midrange disk, so every shot was a monster, laser beam. you are intentionally misconstruing what i posted to serve your purpose. my point is that for many a four here is average, for a pro this hole is birdieable, and that there remains (after how many decades?) no reason to change par on this hole.

[awesomesauce]

Disc golf course review has this to say:

DGCR SSE stands for Scratch Scoring Estimate. This is what DGCourseReview estimates a scratch player (PDGA Player Rating of 1000) is estimated to typically score on this course (as it is currently set up in DGCR). For those unfamiliar with round ratings, another way of putting it is it's our guess as to what a pro might score on that course.

The SSE is calculated using course data from DGCR only. It calculates the SSE by assuming that a scratch player will throw on average 355' on lightly wooded holes, 285' on moderately wooded holes, and 255' on heavily wooded holes. It also assumes that it takes an average 1-2/3 throws to finish up the hole (putts and short range approaches).

There are so many varied configurations of individual holes and courses that it is impossible to have a simple method that is consistently accurate. That's why SSE is an estimate. While some courses are several strokes off, it is amazing how closely these SSEs match the PDGA's SSAs (Averages) that are calculated based on actual players' scores (who have known Player Ratings).

911/355 = 2.5 + 1.67 approach = 4.17 par...

[bspence627]

playing with mr gears on a regular basis i'll tell you it wasn't a destroyer(he doesn't carry one in his bag), it was most likely his star boss and either his awesome forehand or tomahawk. and being mediocre at my best i think i may have foured it once with either scott or steve as my partner. and i've never heard of many threes but i haven't been playing long.

[nastyN]

Yes, Brandon, you're correct, his ace disc. (congrats again to Scott)

[Steven8enz]

Getting a 4 on 11 in doubles is actually pretty common. I find it alot easier to four 11. than three 18.

[Stairyo]

Let's forget about doubles. Establishing a par for doubles would be a whole different thing.

Generally I like DGCR' SSE, but on 911 I find extenuating circumstances:
1. The Wall: The first shot needs to be considered wooded to some extent because there are so many obstacles to get around. I'm not saying 355' is impossible, but it takes a special shot and I'm willing to bet that even scratch players are averaging much less.
2. OB: The whole right side is OB which is a big consideration on the first shot, but also is a factor for the rest as well. Even top pros went OB at RFDO.
If you factor that in I think you will see an SSE between 4.5 and 5, but I agree that it's tough to quantify par just with numbers.

I think the best way to establish par is to look at the history of the hole. Thousands and thousands of rounds should yield the best par estimate. Nate, I'm certainly not trying to misconstrue anything, but I do challenge your assertion that "for many 4 is average"...but if I'm wrong I want to know.

Can we take a poll? How many out there are averaging 4 on Chili hole 11? How often are people seeing 3s?

[MDiRoma]

OK ok ok...my turn
The hole is long. Yup. However, all OB and obstacles considered, i dont think it should be held in any higher regard than the other very difficult par 3's in the area (chili 18, parma 5, chili 15 long pos). Of course "very difficult" depends on the caliber of player. Speaking as an AM (as spence put it "mediocre at best") I think par 3 is fine. Have i done it? nope. But its something to strive for. I have 4'd it twice (single), one of which was a drop-in. If I can do that, then it should definitely be a par 3.

And that there is my 2 pennies.

[Sythie]

You would think this thread was professors debating the space time continuum

[Bryon]

I guess I just don't get why people even care what "par" is. You still shoot the same number.

a 6 is still a 6 weather you call it a +2 or +1.......don't worry about it. You score is still the same. Why don't you make the "par" a 10 so you can feel better about your score. (sarcasm if you can't tell)

[nastyN]

Bottom line is that no one, am or pro, should be happy with a five here because it's not a good score for the hole. It should leave a bad taste in your mouth. It should piss you off, and prepare you to come back ready to really sink your teeth in, throw the crap out of it, and get a better score.
Whining about how par should be increased is little kid talk. Big boys face their challenges head on. If this make any one upset, good, use it next time you tee up or accept it and throw from the blue tee.

[ratt@tat]

Consider that in regular golf holes that are par 5 are the holes they all birdie and sometimes eagle even. An eagle on 11 would be like winning the lottery - its almost impossible. Why would we want the longest basket to be a guaranteed BOGEY hole for pretty much everyone?

[nastyN]

Hang on a sec.... you just said you huck your nuke ss 350, so 350 x 3 = 1050, which is longer than 911, in three shots. Therefore you guys are correct, par here should be changed. Lets make it a three. In fact, why not extend this insanity to all the short "birdie" holes in the area as well. So any holes that are under, say, 380 should all become par 2? You see, it's not a guaranteed bogey, just like shorter holes aren't guaranteed birds.
As I previously stated: you should be mad about scoring a bogey here, but instead of using your time to curse the sign post, walk back to the tee and throw it again. Repeat until satisfied you can do no better.

[chiefstang]

Bottom line is that no one, am or pro, should be happy with a five here because it's not a good score for the hole. It should leave a bad taste in your mouth. It should piss you off, and prepare you to come back ready to really sink your teeth in, throw the crap out of it, and get a better score.
Whining about how par should be increased is little kid talk. Big boys face their challenges head on. If this make any one upset, good, use it next time you tee up or accept it and throw from the blue tee.

Well THAT was nasty...

[Tony Inzana]

A 3 on hole 11 is an Eagle, no matter what level you are. I have NEVER gotten a 3 on this hole in all of the years playing it. i am not a World Class Pro, but I am a decent pro with a decent arm. I am happy, but also at the same time expecting to get a 4 on this hole, but for anyone else, especially in the amateur division where arms are not as big, getting a 4 can be a huge deal and I would consider that a birdie. As the opening trees get bigger, this hole will continue to escalate in technical difficulty, further deserving a par 5 rating. Hole 6 and Hole 18 are par 4's, therefore I believe the par should be 58 for the course. Having said that, I still rate my rounds on the course based on a 54, so using your actual number score to talk is the easiest way to go.

[Tomahawks All Day]

I have just started playing this summer, but I've played about 25 rounds at Chili, so I thought I'd chime in. I pitched in college (90mph fastball), and that overhand throwing motion led me to try throwing tomahawks right away. I can overhand a Flick 350'+ quite accurately. Off the tee at 11 I simply bomb the Flick over the trees, and usually have a mid-range third shot, setting up a chance at a 4 nearly every time I play now.

The problem I have with 11 being a par 4 is that the accuracy AND distance required on the tee shot is too much. (Clearly not everyone can throw long tomahawks that negate the first trees, so I am the exception.) In my mind, the easiest way to determine par is to take how many good shots it will take to get to a putting position and add two strokes. (Par 3s take one shot to reach 'green', 4s = 2 and 5s = 3) That being said, I have yet to see anyone be in a putting position in 2 shots on this hole. I know that three pros had a 3 during the RFDO, but from what I heard, they all sunk very long third shots. If top pros can't regularly reach the hole in 2 shots I think it should play as a 5, especially for amateurs.

I think if the tee was moved up to take the first trees out of play it would be a much fairer par 4. All that being said, the pars really don't matter, its the total strokes that count.

[Brownguy]

if you cant throw over 300' it will always be a 5. 3 300' shots leave you a 11' putt. if you shorten that tee it becomes a short par4 long par 3 for most Adv and open players. I suggest go to PA play hole 6 at Moraine and see what a true 5 looks.

[nastyN]

Well said, Bobby, well said.